Marty Blair: Good afternoon. I am Marty Blair. And I am with the National Center on Disability and Access to Education. We welcome you to this, our series of webcasts, this one entitled NIMAS and NIMAC: an implementation update. The National Center has over 500 affiliates nationwide with a growing number of international affiliates, and we welcome you today. The National Center is dedicated to improving access to electronically mediated education, including distance education for all students by monitoring and promoting educational policies and practices that enhance the lives of people with disabilities.
Today's webcast is a follow-up to our February 2006 webcast entitled "NIMAS in IDEA, and what you need to know now." Today our panelists will provide an update on NIMAS and NIMAC. If you are new to those acronyms, NIMAS is the National Institutional Materials Accessibility Standard. It guides the ways in which instructional materials are developed into instructional formats, and we will have a brief summary of that in a moment. The national repository for files is the National Instructional Materials Access Center or NIMAC, which began accepting the files just a few months ago in December of 2006. We are very glad today to have two panelists, Chuck Hitchcock and Julia Myers. Through a cooperative agreement with the U.S. Department of Education, Mr. Hitchcock is director of the NIMAS technical assistance center. In addition, he is the chief officer of policy and technology at the Center for Applied Special Technology or CAST in Massachusetts where he oversees public policy initiatives and technology innovation. He directs the work on the American Institute for Research Projects, the Centers for Implementing Technology and Education, or CITED. Welcome, Chuck, we're glad to have you here today.
Chuck Hitchcock: Thank you.
Marty: We also have with us Julia Myers. Miss Myers is director of resource services at the American Printing House for the Blind and the NIMAC project director. For over 20 years, she has been involved in creating and managing online databases of bibliographic research and educational materials for Proquest, Online Computer Library Center, and American Printing House for the Blind. She manages resource services at the American Printing House and is responsible for a variety of projects there. Julia, we're glad you are with us.
Julia Myers: Thank you, thank you for inviting me.
Marty: We have about an hour today to discuss NIMAS and NIMAC and its implementation, and throughout this webcast, we invite to you submit questions, if you will go to the bottom of the web page you use to access this webcast today, you will see a section that is available for submitting a question. You are welcome to submit questions at any time during this webcast. Following two brief presentations from our panelists, we will take the questions in the order they come. We will start with Chuck, and then we'll go to Julia, so Chuck, take it away.
Chuck: Thank you, Marty. I think an important point to make first is that we're not going to try to replicate what we did in the first session, and that's a complete overview of NIMAS and NIMAC. There is information on the websites, especially on the NIMAS and the NIMAC websites, an overview, but let me just make a few opening quick comments about the system. As Marty mentioned, the NIMAS is the technical standard and used by publishers to produce source files in XML, and those source files can be used to develop specialized formats to students with print disabilities, and once the NIMAS source file set has been produced, for printed materials in a textbook or related core materials, instructional materials, the XML and the image source files in that file set can be used to create Braille, large print, html versions, Daisy talking books, using human voice or text to speech. They can be used to create auto files derived from text to speech transformations and more, and these formats can then be used to support a diverse group of learners who qualify as students with print disabilities.
That's one of the questions that's probably going to come up, who qualifies. It's importance to know a copyright exemption is allowed to the publishers in order for them to deliver the electronic content of the textbooks or the related core print materials to the NIMAC, as long as they possess the print rights, in other words, they don't have to own all the electronic rice as long as they own the print rights, which would typically be the case if they are going to publish and sell the materials. So, when you have time, I hope that you will visit the NIMAS website, and I know that the URL is posted on the audio broadcast page for this, for this session, and, and I'll mention a bit later, as well, but there is a graphic posted to the right side of the presentations page, which shows an overall picture of how the whole system works, and, and the whole system includes everything from, from the coordination with the national repository, the NIMAC, that Julia will talk about, the roles of the state and local districts is, and in delivering the sets to NIMAC, a file validation process, the download of the files from the NIMAC by authorized users appointed by states, and by accessible media producers, sometimes called amps, selected by, by the authorized users, when requested.
And, and so there's a whole process here of downloading of the raw files and then producing accessible media, specialized formats, and those formats are intended to be used by students who are blind, have low vision, have physical disabilities, and/or have reading disabilities due to organic dysfunction, such as dyslexia. And so the graphics sort of match the overall model, but it also shows the shortcut. The shortcut is something that we call the market model. It is the point at which we expect that publishers will own all of the electronic rights to the content and may even produce html versions of books, or Daisy versions of books. We don't think that they are going to develop Brail, but they could. Then they can sell these alongside the textbook or in place of the textbook to districts, so we think this is going to evolve, too, over the next couple of years.
The requirements for what states do and what is expected of local districts included in the federal statute, IDEA 2004, and then further detailed by regulations. And just a couple of hot issues. I can go into a bit of what's new is the, as the questions come along, the things coming up. I especially want to point you to the website because we keep updating that all the time with new resources from publishers, states, local school districts, but here are just a couple of the hot issues that are coming up. The publishers are just beginning to hear from states that in some cases, they want more than the NIMAS file set. And in a few cases, this is confounding publishers because they expected that anything published from July 19 2006 on, the only requirement on them would be that they would produce the NIMAS files subset, and then make that available upon request to the NIMAC for downloads.
So what's beginning to happen is that some states are beginning to say that we would like to have the rich text, which we always expected to get anyways, and the word versions and the PDF version and we don't have a simple answer to this. We're not really in a position to say that there's only one solution. Although, it's important to know that the NIMAC is designed only to hold the NIMAS file sets.
Another issue is the desire on the part of the publishers to make sure that we contain all of this population described to students with print disabilities into a reasonably small population. If you add up the number of students with print and low vision-related disabilities, the physical challenges and students with, who qualify with various reading disabilities, we're probably talking about, and this is not scientific, but we're probably talking about 5% or 6% of the student population.
There were issues for conversion houses that are contracted by publishers, and those issues have to do with the proper preparation of the files. It's very technical, and somewhat complex. For the accessible media producers, we know that one current problem is that the newest versions of the Braille description software, such as Cucksbury and Braille 2000 are not quite ready yet. The versions that would import the XML from a NIMAS file sets and then guide the transcriber through the process of producing Braille. They are close but they are not quite ready yet.
For states, this is a complex period of time because when you are trying to figure out if they developed their own systems for conversion, as have Texas and California, as Indiana is beginning to do, as Kentucky has done for a number of years, and who do they depend on instead? The national organizations, such as the American Printing House for the Blind or the more local, state level, instructional resource centers for the blind and low vision, or, perhaps, on bookshare and [inaudible].
Just to wrap up, I know Julia will be talking a bit about authorized users are, and there were a number of issues that come up with them, as well, and then finally at the local level, we're getting questions from local districts, hopefully not too many all at once, about who qualifies, you know, which students do qualify and how best to determine which students will benefit from what formats, through the use of which tools. So we're working on documents now that we can put up on the website to help with that particular issue, and what resources are available to obtain the various tools of specialized formats that they are going to need. So I think I'll stop there for the moment and I'll welcome your questions a little later.
Marty: Thanks, Chuck. Thank you very much. And just to remind those of you that are listening in today, the URLs for the website that Chuck referred to and Julia might refer to are located on the page you used to tune in today, so if you are interested in looking at that information it's just a click away.
Julia. We look forward to what you have to say.
Julia: Ok. Well, the American Printing House for the Blind established the National Instruction Materials Access Center because that was actually written into the legislation for the Individuals with Disabilities Education Improvement Act of 2004, APH was named as the site, and Marty already mentioned that. The same legislation also requires the state to adopt the NIMAS format, which Chuck talked about in a bit more detail, and it is an option or a choice of the states, whether they choose to coordinate with the NIMAC or work directly with the publishers to receive the NIMAS files from them. It is our understanding that most states and territories will choose to coordinate or work though the NIMAC. And that has some copyright implications for the publishers that Chuck touched on a moment ago, as well.
The NIMAC basically is a central repository for the NIMAS files and as Chuck mentioned, these are source files. They are not student-ready. They need to have additional conversions work upon them, to be turned into Braille, Daisy, or whatever particular specialized format is required. What the NIMAC does is, essentially I talk about that a simply a box. We built an automated system through Overdrive, Inc as a technology provider for this and we seed through an automated fashion the deposit of the NIMAS files from the publisher. Those files are validated. We look at them here at the NIMAC, and we use a combination of automated tools and actual human quality control to check the files and make sure that they are cataloged into a searchable database so the files are easy to find as well as making sure that they are valid NIMAS.
Anyone may search the NIMAC. You may enter it through the website at www.NIMAC.us. And you will find the link to the NIMAC repository. Anyone may search the NIMAC to see was files are available, but only those who have the user I.D. and password and are authorized or able to download files.
So how do we get the files, again, probably should come directly to us from the publishers, the NIMAC and the legislation does not have authority to require the deposit of files into the NIMAC. That obligation and that authority rest with the local and state educational agencies who need to write into their contracts that they wish the publisher to deposit NIMAS format, not NIMAS files, the instructional print materials they purchased into the NIMAC. The nimas.cast.org website has advice from cast on how LEAs and FDAs may approach this. Publishers may choose to deposit NIMAC files on a volunteer basis, and we actually have had some files deposited in that way, but there is no guarantee. Otherwise the files come to the NIMAC, the local or state educational agencies do not write into the contract a requirement that these materials be deposited into the NIMAC.
What kinds of materials do we receive? We mentioned IDEA, the NIMAS has a very nice and easy to use excerpt from IDEA of the NIMAS, the provision which includes the definitions, and including the definition of the materials that are to be deposited into the NIMAC, but in essence, those are deposited for elementary and secondary school students and are core and instructional related materials and may be deposited into the NIMAC. As Chuck mentioned, although others have asked us because of the way the legislation is written, we are really not able to accommodate any other file formats. NIMAC was established to receive NIMAS files. Again, the NIMAS files are not student ready. They are a source file, as Chuck mentioned.
So who can sign up to get files from the NIMAC and how? There are very detailed instructions on our website about how to sign up. There are also a number of webcasts, we have offered at least a dozen since November, either towards those in the state and local educational agencies, authorized users and state coordinators or publishers and working with the NIMAC. We have a number of those webcast archives and we also have quick step-by-step fact sheets on how to work with the NIMAC available on the website, and we also have our contact information in case there are any questions. And I want to urge you to check the website because the upcoming webcasts are providing more detailed information than we will be offering today is. [Inaudible]
But the NIMAS files are not actually student-ready. The NIMAC doesn't work directly with students, individual schools, teachers or parents. These files are very lantern, very specialized files that need to be converted by, essentially, experts at producing these specialized formats. Accessible media producers, as Chuck mentioned, or if the state or local educational agency has the capacity, itself to create these specialized formats. But it does require a very specific skill and again we are [inaudible] files.
So, the states, when they choose to coordinate with us, to let us know that they are going to provide, as the publishers provide the NIMAS files to us, also identify for us the authorized users in their states who will have the ability to download these files with... again, I want to mention, many of them are very, very large files and complex to work with. To download the files or if they wish the the facility of the NIMAC they may assign the files to the accessible media producers, including organizations which many of you probably have heard of, such as recorders for the blind and dyslexic and bookshare, but a whole host of other agencies that produced either Braille, Daisy, or some other specialized format. Working as an agent of that authorized user, media producers can download those from the NIMAC and begin to work to bring it to their specialized format.
And Chuck already touched on this, can the NIMAS files be used to produce any files for any child with a disability? We get this question quite often, so I wanted to point the participants today to, again, the legislation. The definition of who qualifies is, is within IDEA 2004, and we, at the NIMAC, do not provide further definition of that beyond what is in the legislation. But has Chuck mentioned clearly, blind, visually impaired students were covered and certain, certain disabilities, as well, that have an organic nature.
We also get questions about where people should go to if they are trascribers or others that need to learn how to convert these files or produce the files - the conversion house working for publishers. This is, frankly, new territory for many, who are the shake holders in this process, and Chuck is the lucky recipient of those calls, and I know that he has his contact information and guidance on those issues, and they are available on the NIMAS website.
At the NIMAC, we opened for business on Midnight on December 3, 2006, which was the target date, and we will, of course, continue to revise our system as we gain more practical information in working with the NIMAS files, our various stakeholders, and users groups. The system has been up and is operational and has been since December 3, 2006. We currently have 19 pushers who are working with us beginning to contribute files to the NIMAC. That includes all the publishers, there are four or five publishers in the united states who are responsible for, for producing between 80 and 85% of the elementary and secondary textbooks. All those publishers are already signed onboard with us, but there are many, many hundreds of publishers. So we do have all the major ones that they are working, that are working with us. We have 32 states and territories working with us and coordinating with us and beginning to identify their authorized users. We in fact, we already have 30 authorized users, and we have 30 accessible video producers registered with us. We have at 8:00 this morning, 730 certified files available for downloads by both authorized users or for assignment to accessible media producers to convert into the desired specialized format. Finally, contact information is on our website, which, again, is www.nimac.us, or email us at NIMAC@aph.org or call us at 877-52NIMAC. That's it for me.
Marty: Thank you very much. We will make sure that information, your contact information is on our site. Just a reminder for those who would like to submit questions, we know that several of you have already. Please go to submit questions, to the question section of the website that you used to link to this webcast today. Several questions have come in, and Julia, you did mention briefly a number of publishers and those that have participated, and I think you mentioned something about 730 or 737 books or materials or files that have been submitted at this point. Are those all book files? Are those textbooks? And do you expect more to be added over the summer in time for new fall adoptions?
Julia: Yes. In fact, I think we were just now beginning to get started. Those 731 files are from just a handful of publishers. One of the things that we're working with the publishers on is to get a better feel for the timing and the number of files coming our way and we expect that spring and summer will be, will really pick up with the receipt of files because we need to be sure that we are able to get those files certified and available for download as quickly as possible. And they have been trying to provide us as much guidance on that as they can.
In terms of the types of materials that we are receiving, we have textbooks in a wide range of subject areas. We have quite a number of books that are part of a reading program, specifically from Scott Foresman as it happens, we have the decodable readers. We have, we believe on the way to us also, and somewhat as a surprise, NIMAS files by [inaudible] and flash cards also that were required of the publisher to deposit. We will also have a few NIMAS file sets that will not be the complete books because there is a requirement that these student, the student portion, a certain teacher edition be deposited. These will be noted, and we will receive only the student material. That was the material meant for the teacher. So, mostly textbooks. Right now we have quite a lot of materials that falls into the area of reading programs, [inaudible] readers.
Marty: And if people would like to see what you have, it sounds like that is available for view on your website, correct?
Julia: Yes. It's freely searchable. Anyone may search the NIMAC. It is the fact that only those who have a user I.D. and password who will be able to download the files. And to be able to search the NIMAC, they just need to go to www.NIMAC.us. You'll see a link that says enter the NIMAC repository. Click on that, the first option will be a choice to search the NIMAC. One does not have to log on or does not need a password in order to search. We have -- we will continue to work with the search interface. Everything is currently, you know, in flux as we are finding we need to add more features or whatsoever, but it is searchable by title, by ISBN, by series, by publisher, by copyright date. There are a number of ways to search, by grade level. It's possible to do a very simple search, if you happen to know the ISBN number or a more complex search. There is also a subject classification so those also are searchable by subject.
Marty: That's great. Thank you very much.
Another question that has come in, and you both briefly touched on this, and Chuck, I think this question comes to you. Who provides the technical assistance to help school districts learn about how NIMAS files can interact with various assistive technologies? Is that the responsibility of the assistive technology vendor or the district? How does that work?
Chuck: That's a great question, but let me start at a higher level, which is, it is the responsibility under the regulations for IDEA for the state and the local school districts to assure that all students with print disabilities, whether they qualify specifically for NIMAS file sets or not, that all students with print disabilities receive the specialized formats that they need to access the general curriculum, to participate in the general curriculum and succeed. Now, that's a big charge, and that was in the regulation, but not in the statute. So this means that there's a group of students to actually be on those who would qualify for the materials created by the NIMAS file sets that, actually, ought to be receiving some consideration for accessible materials by the local evaluation team at the time, perhaps at the time that the IEP is being written.
Now, who has the responsibility? The way that our technical assistant centers work is that we're charged, first, to help support the states, the conversion houses, and the publishers to actually make this process work, because it's rather complex and there is a lot of change required. As you probably know at the state level, state directed special ed didn't play a significant role in the specialized formats. It's more often a technology-oriented group or assistive technology-oriented group, so this is what they do to some of them, and they are still ramping up to implement, but most of the states I have spoken with are taking seriously their need to work with the local school districts to assure that the teachers receive the information, receive the training that's necessary to use the appropriate tools and to use the specialized format. Our role in helping them -- so this is where the connection is, I view it as part of my role to make sure that the states have the tools and the materials and the information they need to do that work, so there is sort of a flow down to the local level, but my focus will be in making sure that the states have what they need to support the local school districts.
Marty: Great. You have mentioned a lot about school districts, and we've been talking about special education and idea. We have had three questions come in the last couple of minutes - people that are curious about the NIMAC, NIMAS, and the interaction with the higher education or colleges. Any thoughts about that?
Chuck: Well, let me -- I'll say something first, and Julia may want to add something, as well. APH, as you probably know, is the umbrella organization for the NIMAC, has a lot of experience in that area. But, there's a complete separation between K-12 education in this regard and higher education and beyond, partly because IDEA 2004 and various other iterations apply specifically to K-12 education.
Now, it does turn out that higher education is looking at NIMAS or NIMAC as a possible model, but they are moving very cautiously because the market is very different in higher education. First of all, the student is the customer, not the state or the local school district. Secondly, the turn rate of the textbooks is much greater. A textbook in K-12 may last six, seven, eight years, trying not to go beyond that, but they sometimes go beyond that. In higher education, the typical textbook is only good for about two years and then there is a new edition, so it's rather complex really to think about how to implement a system like this in higher education given the different customer base and given the amount of churn in the actual materials they need for modification and change. Everybody understands, and AHEAD is an organization interested in this topic for higher education, is looking at a number of different solutions, working with the American Association of Publishers, as we have, but they are looking at different solutions that might be appropriate, and the NIMAS-like structure is potentially one but it's not here yet.
Marty: Julia, anything to add?
Julia: Well, just, as Chuck said, the IDEA 2004 covers the materials published for students in elementary or secondary school, the scope of the NIMAC is established under that federal law. So, the scope of the NIMAC is, you know, limited to elementary, secondary school. APH itself does have a special mission to provide, and has had since the 19th century, to students in elementary and secondary schools for Braille readers, blind, visually impaired, however, the [inaudible] database, accessible materials for people who are visually impaired and the APH file repositories is not specifically restricted to K-12 instructional materials, however, the preponderance of the materials in the APH file repository which are file that may be used expedite the production of Braille or the database which I should also mention, we are working very carefully with the NIMAC to ensure that these specialized formats that are produced ultimately from these NIMAS files can be listed. Louie is basically a location service for locating where specialized formats are located. We have about 183 agencies that list their materials in louie and those might be a Daisy book, recordings for the blind and dyslexic, it could be Braille from APH, it could be a number of specialized formats. Be sure that those specialized formats are listed in Louie.
And as Chuck mentioned, the AAP is looking now, as the special higher ed initiative, looking at a solution for this. But NIMAC, per say, is under IDEA, and limited to the K-12, basically.
Marty: Thank you. We remind those of you participating, if you have questions, to please submit them on the form at the bottom of the page that you used to link to our webcast today. Chuck, you mentioned a, very quickly, an association AHEAD, the Association for Higher Education and Disability, for those that are interested in those what that group is doing, you can find them probably by a search engine, Googling them, or something like that.
Here's another question related to higher education. What about students who may have disabilities who are involved in what some states refer to as "concurrent enrollment," where they are in a high school situation, they may be in special education services, but they are enrolled in a college course. Is there any requirement for the school district to get access to that college textbook even though the child is in a college class but in a high school K-12 setting?
Chuck: This is Chuck. You can probably tell my voice from Julia's. [Laughter]
Marty: Yes.
At any rate, OSEP actually asked me to add some language to the fact -- the Office of Special Education Programs, US Department of Education, asked me to add a block to our faq regarding NIMAS. The question was coming to the U.S. Department of Education about this very issue. So, they were able to have a number of attorneys look at the issue and the response was fairly clear. Until a student is a graduate of the K-12 system, or district, the K-12 district has responsible for insuring that the student has what they need to succeed, whether the courses are offered in the high school or in a community college, as an example. So the answer is yes, the school still has that responsibility, the higher ed organization does not have the immediate responsibility until the student graduates is.
Marty: Ok. Thank you. Another question has to do with who qualifies. You both discussed that briefly in your presentation. I know there has been quite a bit of discussion about copyright law and all the issues surrounding that. How far does the district have to go to prove the disabilities of the children that are receiving NIMAS files? Is there any kind of requirement for the school district, any report that they have to do to show who these files are going to and what they are being used for?
Julia: Not to the NIMAC. We don't require any such reporting to the NIMAC. We have a limitation of use agreement that those who are able to download files need to sign off on that includes the definition of the students who are served, basically, from the legislation, and that needs to be signed off on by the authorized user, but we don't require any reporting back about the students or to the NIMAC.
Chuck: So I should add, beyond the NIMAC, we feel that the state has responsibility to inform the local districts of their responsibility to insure that these specialized formats that are created from the NIMAS file set obtained from the NIMAC are used legitimately and wisely and carefully, that, in fact, the students do qualify.
Responding to your question specifically first of all, there is no reporting requirement, but we would ask that, that the states make sure to inform the local districts that there should be a record in which students qualify. Perhaps, even what justification they used for making that qualification, and as part of the 1931 act for the adult blink, the division of books to the adult blind, where the four categories come from - blind, vision, physical, and reading disability based on organic dysfunction. Based on those categories, there is a requirement for – a qualification for three of the categories, and some flexibility around who actually certifies. The fourth category, there is a requirement for certification by a medical doctor of a couple of different types, and it's spelled out on the website. But, the important thing is there's not really a requirement that a student be referred for a catscan or an MRI, for example, to determine organic dysfunction. Organic dysfunction can be derived by deduction, by an evaluation team. They are the expert people to determine whether a student has a physical disability or reading disability based on organic dysfunction. They need a certification from an M.D., someone to sign off and say that they agree with this, and most cases that will be retained on record at the school level, and of course, the Association of Publishers and the Association of Education Publishers, supplemental publishers, want to make sure that everything is on the up and up with this regard.
So, there's not a reporting up requirement, although bookshare and [inaudible] have a membership user agreement that basically provides an assurance that a student does qualify under the Chafey amendment of the copyright law. And similar systems are being put in place. In Kentucky, for example, there's a requirement by the state that a local school, actually, names something that they described as a digital rights manager, and that person, often the school principal, has the responsibility for insuring that the students who receive these specialized formats do qualify for them, and they are also responsible for managing the materials and assuring the systems are in place, that the materials are properly used.
Marty: Thank you. One of you mentioned early on that, that there were a number of states that agreed to work directly with the NIMAC, but it doesn't have to be a state. It sounds like a local education agency or a school district could do the same. What are the differences between how an LEA or local education agency would interact with the NIMAC as opposed to a state or state education agency? Are there differences between how that works?
Julia: The NIMAC works with the state level -- this is Julia, with the state level to identify the authorized users in the state. In terms of how the files are deposited into the NIMAC, whoever is contracting for the materials with the publishers would need to handle the coordination, to write into the agreement that these files need to be deposited in NIMAC. But, it is at the state level, a state official who designates the state coordinator, who identifies the authorized user for the NIMAC.
Marty: Ok. Thank you. We've got a question here from someone, actually in the state of Utah who deals with instructional materials. Can you clarify which core materials are covered by NIMAS? For example, this person understands that math is not covered, what about science or other core education courses?
Chuck: Well, this is Chuck. Actually, math is not exempted. I've been hearing -- I have heard, over the last couple weeks, a number of people say that we understand that math is on hold. It is actually not true, and let me come back to that in a minute to say first of all, all subjects are covered, and it's intended to apply, first of all, to textbooks. Secondly, to related core instructional or print materials, and that would be the things that are connected to the textbook and are provided by the publisher, and with a little, there is a little detailed work to be done still, a bit of negotiation, perhaps, between publishers and states or between local and school districts and publishers around, you know, how far that can go. For example, if a publisher happens to wrap in some trade books with its third grade reading series, but it doesn't really own the rights to those books. The publisher may not be in a position to actually provide those files to the NIMAC.
Coming back to mathematics, we're in sort of a funny place, we're sort of bleeding edge around the use of XML for these NIMAS files, and so the content of all the textbook information is provided in this technology called extensible markup language or XML, and XML is highly structured. It's all the information in the textbook, but highly tagged so there is information about what level a heading is or what's a paragraph or various other things, and it even points to the image, which is in a folder somewhere.
There is also a technology called MathML, for marking out equations and algorithms. And when equations are marked up, they blend in very nicely with the overall XML content. The problem is that technology is not quite mature enough yet to be embedded into a math textbook in the third grade or seventh grade or even if it were, the conversion tools for creating Braille or large print or audio books or Daisy books or HTML versions of talking books, don't exist yet for doing a quick conversion from the NIMAS file set XML into an equation, so the solution, the short-term solution, we hope for not more than three years, is that the publishers provide an image of the equation, so it's a JPEG file or a PNG file or an SVG file, with the formats for images, that they will provide those in folders, referenced within the math textbook, so that they can be displayed on a page in the same place that the equation would appear.
Now, our hope is that the math textbook publishers will also include the alt text for those equation images. But, that may have to be done by a third party, like [inaudible] or bookshare or whoever the accessible media producer is. That may have to be added, and as you know, that will require some expertise because someone will have to be able to read, you know, an equation, or read the trig or calculus, but it surely applies. It's not deferred.
Julia: Ok. This is Julia, I would like to go ahead and add that in fact, we have received math books already into the NIMAC, and as an example, I don't think that we talked a lot, Chuck, about the NIMAS file set itself, the component, it includes the PDF, it will include the title, the copyright information, it will include the text in an XML, and will include the images in a folder in the format that Chuck just mentioned. And just as an FYI, a first grade math book that we received has well over 5,000 images. There is, actually, very little text. The textbook, itself, is like 1.7 gigs. The, the XML or text portion of it comprises less than half a percent of that entire file size.
Because some of these files are so heavy with images, the images are very, very large and everyone won't need them. I wanted to mention that we do already have an option within NIMAC that if someone needs to see XML, just the textual portion of the file, they are allowed to download just the XML as opposed to being forced to download the complete file set because again, you know, when we are talking about space, transmission working with files, there is all the difference in the world between just the XML and the images. But on the other hand, most of the math and equations and etc. are being treated as images, so in the case of the math if you are not downloading the images, you will probably lose valuable instructional material. And again, that's why these files are not considered to be student-ready at this time.
Chuck: So Julia, this is Chuck, and so I think the great advantage to the service you just described is that if a transcriber, for example, has the printed textbook as a reference, there is no need for them to get the images because they are not going to use them in the student-ready version, is that right?
Julia: Yes, if someone doesn't need the images, they can download just the XML, but, in fact, in this particular case we just mentioned, the first grade math book, there wouldn't be a lot left for the transcriber to download, so a better example might be other materials, social studies or science books, where there would be a great deal of text that they would still be able to easily capture through this process.
Marty: Thank you. It sounds like in the answer to the question, there is no content area exempt from the NIMAS.
Chuck: That's correct.
Marty: One of the questions that we got earlier on it, came from one of our, our participants in higher education, and Chuck, I think you mentioned this or alluded to this, but several districts, many, maybe, have had agreements with publishers in the past to receive is rich text formats or other types of textual material from, from publishers, but they are not required to do that. They probably never were, and, and how does this NIMAS or NIMAC or the NIMAS standard affect any of that? Does it at all?
Chuck: Another great question. And a difficult one because we have had discussions with a number of districts that were told by publishers, for example, that when they called up for the rich text they used to get to do their own conversion, that oh, well, we have NIMAS now. We don't have to provide that. And it turned out that in the first example of this that I heard of, it was for a book that was published in 2004, not something published on or after July 19, 2006, and so NIMAS didn't even apply to those materials, unless the publisher voluntarily creates the NIMAS file sets and submits them to the NIMAC for something published earlier than July 2006. So, there is an ongoing expectation, and we have had this discussion with the AAP, and we understand they provided guidance to their members. There's an ongoing expectation that past practice will continue for legacy materials for as long as necessary. But because otherwise, there will be pressure through textbook adoptions to go back to the publishers and say ok, well, if we can't get the rich text and we can't get the other versions we need, then we are going to ask you through the adoption process to give us the NIMAS file sets for those 2005 and 2004 editions because the adoption cycle is five or six years, and, you know, we have to have something.
Marty: Ok. So, there is an expectation, when you said AAP, American Association of Publishers?
Chuck: Yes.
Marty: Ok.
What do you see, both of you, from your perspective as being the, the biggest challenges in the next six to 12 months in terms of implementation and adoption of this whole way of doing things.
Chuck: I'll go first, if you would like me to, or you may.
Marty: Go ahead.
Julia: Go ahead, Chuck.
Chuck: I actually don't think that they are technical. I think that we know pretty much how to complete these file sets. I think we know -- Julia knows how to, to validate these file sets as they come into the NIMAC, with their agreement with Overdrive, they know how to store them, make them available, catalog them, and I think that the real challenge is around state implementation. The state is trying to figure out, and many states sort of are in the middle of this process right now, trying to figure out how much do they need to be in the business of file conversion? So, we're trying to be careful. Some states are beginning down a path of using their assistive technology resources. They may have regional centers, for example, to help create specialized formats. And in others, there is an expectation, there is going to be some done at the state level, some drawing on national resources, there will be an expectation that in a few cases, the local school districts may actually do some conversion with simple to use tools, although we're not encouraging the movement of any of those raw files, the source files down to the local level.
So trying to figure out what that right balance is has been very challenging for a lot of states. If they have not been doing any of this work before, if it's all new to them, and I can tell you that in some cases, you know, some are copying the systems that already exist, that have been successful, but updating the technologies to include NIMAS, and in other cases, there were contracts that are in place with recordings for the blind and dyslexic, with Bookshare, and they are very happy with the services that were available through their American Printing Houses for the Blind, or their local, or state trustee or instructional resource center affiliated with the American Printing House for the Blind, and they are going to figure out how to use those resources for a while.
The one thing that we want to avoid is to have 50 states and the various territories all doing the same work without figuring out a system for sharing some of that work, so it may turn out that a good way to do this is to use the national resources that are available first, look at where the gaps exist, and then figure out a system where various states coordinate their efforts to prepare the specialized formats, and we don't yet have a system in place to figure out how to communicate in this way or share those resources, but I think that that's where we are headed.
Marty: Great. Thank you. Julia.
Julia: Well, I guess the answer for me depends on whether I'm thinking today that the glass is half full or half empty. There is so much that's already been accomplished, and I agree with Chuck that so much of the technical work has been accomplished. There is still a great deal to do, however. There are a number of publishers who have been in place, with contracts with conversion houses who are skilled in producing the NIMAS files, but there are many others who are just getting involved in this process, and they will have a ways to go for this to really be part of their production dream. There is a lot of work, I think, that still needs to be done at the state and the local level, and Chuck has talked about many of those issues.
For the NIMAC, we need to gain more knowledge, more experience in order to make our service faster and better. To better predict the arrival of the files so we can be certain. We have always used the NIMAC as just one small step in this process. It starts with the publisher and ends with the student receiving the specialized format that they need, and we absolutely want our process to take as little time as possible, so to be sure that we are able to have the files certified and validated and available absolutely as quickly as we can.
So, I think that we're all still working hard on all of these issues, but I do think that there is, you know, demonstrably a great deal of progress and Chuck, another issue that he mentioned earlier with regard to the software for the Braille transcribers, that's also key with the work that needs to be done in that area so that the transcribers will be able to use these files effectively coming from the American Printing House for the Blind. Obviously, that's an issue that's very close to me. You hear about transcribers, you hear about how important that is for them. We may -- we, collectively, everyone who has worked for so many years to make NIMAS and NIMAC a reality. So much has been accomplished that I don't want to lose sight on that, but there is still a good deal of work to be done in all those areas.
Marty: Great.
Chuck: Marty, can I add one more?
Marty: Sure.
Chuck: It's Chuck.
Marty: Quickly. [Laughter]
Chuck: Yes. Very quickly. And that's, there's a great need, and I hope that you know some Ph.D. and EDD students, there is a great need for research at the local level to figure out which formats are most effective for which purposes, and so talking books is not a replacement for learning how to read. When it's appropriate to use them and when it's not is the subject of need for more research.
Marty: Great. Thank you. We have had several -- thank you for helping us figure out what the big challenges are. We have a couple of questions coming in and just a few minutes left. One of the questions comes, I think, from probably one of the publishers, and I will just read the question. If ascii or RTF math art files, they are being keyed in by the publisher, why would a state agency want to pay for this work? Why wouldn't they simply request ascii or RTF and bypass the NIMAS all-together?
Chuck: You mean as a state that wants to have -- I know I'm asking you to interpret, Marty, but you think that this means that in a case where a state actually is not going to use NIMAS file sets immediately, and wants the rich text, that they are simply going to request that through an adoption process or through whatever clout they may have with the publisher around purchasing power, and continue to do that for the next three or four years?
Marty: I think what the question may be, the question is, I think asking if we would ask a publisher to go ahead and do ascii and RTF, why would we want to go through the NIMAS process if it's still going to require more work on my end from a state agency perspective, still going to cost me money to do the file conversion, why would I want to do that? Why couldn't I just have the publisher give it to me in a format that I can use right off the bat.
Chuck: A couple things are going to happen. One in a lot of states that have experience with this, they already know that some of their transcribers for Braille, for example, are going to be ready to move to XML within the next six months, but others probably will, would prefer to use rich text files for the next two years, are not going to move very easily from one technology to another, and so some states are starting to plan for that variation, which may also be true of other specialized format conversions, for some states. You know what, I mean, NIMAS is new. The use of the NIMAC is new. And some are just being a little careful, if they do have experience with these conversions in the past, they just sort of are hedging their bets a bit to make sure that they have what they need. But everyone understands the XML has a great advantage, first of all, the content is all accurate, it's the exact text of what is in the textbook, and secondly, it's all marked up in a very structured way that's going to help with the Braille and Daisy books and others.
Marty: Thank you. I just have one more question and 30 seconds to address it. Why did you not make images available to everyone? This goes back to a conversation of a few minutes ago. A book, for example, a math book without graphics is not of much use. Why the discrimination?
Julia: I think Chuck's example was that of a Braille transcriber who had the print book, and perhaps, is producing one of the tactile graphics, for example, the geometry book, by hand in any case, and not using the images that they had the option to not download them if they didn't want them, for whatever their particular purpose is, not that they are not available. They are available, the full file download is the standard but there is the option for just the XML if, for some reason, it is the specific case, the images are not required by that accessible media producer.
Marty: That's the user's determines as to whether to download?
Julia: Yes. Well, they are required for deposit. They are required by the file set for deposit before they are sent.
Marty: They must all be there in order to be put into the NIMAC?
Julia: Yes. Yep.
Marty: Well, thank you very much. I don't know if Chuck or Julia, if you have a last word? We have got about 20 seconds each. Chuck, anything to add?
Chuck: Well, I just -- it's been fantastic that over a number of years, a lot of people working on solving this problem have helped us get to this point, and I think we're going to see the fruits of this over the next six months to a year or so. I am very encouraged.
Marty: Julia, you go the last word.
Julia: We look forward to working with everyone, to continuing to work with everyone at NIMAC. Please continue with your questions, and anything we haven't addressed today, we'll try to do our best to answer any questions you may ask.
Marty: Thank you very much. We appreciate our panelists today. If you have specific questions that you would like to address to our panelists, you can contact them via the links that are on our website. Our next webcast will be on Wednesday, May 16, 2007, entitled "Accessibility 2.0?" with a question mark, we will be discussing the next generation of web technologies and the implications for accessibility. Please visit our website for more information and for daily updated news regarding accessibility and technology mediated education. Our website, as you know, is ncdae.org. Thank you very much, and have a great week.